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apollonia

Tetradramma di Siracusa capolavoro dell’arte siciliana classica

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apollonia
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Salve.

Nell’asta NAC 114 del 6 maggio scorso è stato aggiudicato a più del doppio della stima il tetradramma del titolo firmato da Eukleidas, il medaglista e incisore di conii greco attivo a Siracusa nel periodo 415 - 390 a. C.

1151828589_NACsyracuse-tetradrachm-signed-by-4947338-XL.jpg.b83d70f2ed083134e0bc60f175214f79.jpg

Starting price: 100.000,00 CHF Estimate: 125.000,00 CHF Result: 275.000,00 CHF

Lot 81. Syracuse. Tetradrachm, signed by Eukleidas circa 405-400, AR 17.27 g. Fast quadriga driven l. by female charioteer, holding reins in l. hand and raising flaming torch in r.; above, Nike flying r. to crown her. In exergue, barley ear to l. Rev. Σ[ΥΡΑΚΟΣΙΟ]Σ Head of Athena facing three-quarters l., wearing double-hook earring, necklace of pendant acorns with central gorgoneion-medallion and triple-crested Attic helmet on whose bowl signature ΕVΚ ? ΛΕΙΔ. On both sides, two dolphins swimming downwards. Rizzo pl. XLIII, 21 (these dies). Kraay-Hirmer pl. 112 (this reverse die). Alföldi, Florilegium Numismaticum p. 359, 6-7 (these dies). Jameson 1833 (this coin). AMB 465 (this coin). Tudeer 59. Coins, Artists, and Tyrants 59c (this coin).
Extremely rare and one of the greatest masterpieces of Classical numismatic Sicilian art. A magnificent portrait of superb style struck in high relief and with a lovely old cabinet tone. The usual die break on the
reverse, otherwise extremely fine.

Ex NAC 13, 1998, formerly exhibited at the Antike Museum Basel, 465 and NAC 48, 2008, 48 sales. From the Jameson and A.D.M. collection.

 

Volevo far notare che la frattura di conio sul rovescio era dichiaratamente ‘appena visibile’ sull’esemplare della Leu 81 (2001) in https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=82664

1096083783_Leu82664.m.jpg.216b07648b854efd20638426c039687d.jpg

Sicily
Syracuse
Estimate: CHF 250'000.00
Tetradrachm (Silver, 17.03 g 7), c. 405-400, signed by Eukleidas. Female charioteer, wearing a long, fluttering chiton, and holding a torch in her right hand and the reins in her left, driving a racing quadriga to left; above, Nike flying right to crown the charioteer; in exergue, ear of wheat. Rev. [] Head of Athena facing, slightly inclined to the left, her hair falling in waves, wearing triple-crested helmet adorned with palmettes, and necklace of pendant acorns with an gorgoneion as a central pendant; on bowl of helmet, signature, ; to left and right, two pairs of dolphins, both swimming clockwise. Basel 465. Kraay/Hirmer 112. Rizzo pl. XLIII, 21. Tudeer 59. Extremely rare. A magnificent coin, beautifully toned. Extremely fine.
From the collection of C. Gillet, 627.

This wonderful coin is the finest known example of one of the great masterpieces of late 5th century numismatic art. The three other known examples, one once in Acireale (and now in Syracuse?), the Basel piece and a third in Vienna, all share a severe die break running across Athena's face: on this coin the break has just appeared and is barely visible (for the problems inherent in placing a facing head on a reverse die, and for a discussion of Eukleidas as artist and goldsmith, see M.RAlföldi, Eukleidas - ein Goldschmied, Studies Westermark, pp. 357-363, and fig. 1 [this coin]). The goddess on this coin is certainly not the famous Athena Parthenos from Athens, though Eukleidas may well have taken his inspiration from her statue; rather, she is the Athena from the ancient Syracusan temple on the island of Ortygia. Her wildly flowing hair, and the dolphins surrounding her, has led to the suggestion that she might, in fact, be the Syracusan Arethusa wearing Athena's helmet as a commemoration of Syracuse's victory over the Athenian invasion in 415. In support of this theory she has been compared with Kimon's famous facing head of Arethusa (as Kraay/Hirmer 122-123). However, her hair is actually quite different, the dolphins would be equally appropriate for Athena's island sanctuary, and since she also wears Athena's gorgoneion as the central pendant on her necklace her identification as Athena seems more than secure.

 

La spiegazione della frattura appena visibile data nella didascalia è:

Gli altri tre esemplari noti, uno ad Acireale (e ora a Siracusa?), il pezzo di Basilea e un terzo a Vienna, condividono tutti una seria frattura di conio che attraversa la faccia di Atena: su questa moneta la frattura compare ed è appena visibile (per i problemi insiti nel mettere una testa frontale su un conio di rovescio, e per una discussione su Eukleidas come artista e orafo, vedi M. RAlföldi, Eukleidas - ein Goldschmied, Studies Westermark, pp. 357-363, e fig. 1 [questa moneta]).

Si può ritenere convincente? Agli esperti del conio la risposta.

Forse volevano dire che sul conio usato per questo esemplare la frattura si era appena formata?

1235129467_Giovenalefirmaconingleseetedescook.jpg.69908def44f779f23c8db780f19ddc19.jpg

Edited by apollonia

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YV_ laMoneta
39 minuti fa, apollonia dice:

Salve.

Nell’asta NAC 114 del 6 maggio scorso è stato aggiudicato a più del doppio della stima il tetradramma del titolo firmato da Eukleidas, il medaglista e incisore di conii greco attivo a Siracusa nel periodo 415 - 390 a. C.

1151828589_NACsyracuse-tetradrachm-signed-by-4947338-XL.jpg.b83d70f2ed083134e0bc60f175214f79.jpg

Starting price: 100.000,00 CHF Estimate: 125.000,00 CHF Result: 275.000,00 CHF

Lot 81. Syracuse. Tetradrachm, signed by Eukleidas circa 405-400, AR 17.27 g. Fast quadriga driven l. by female charioteer, holding reins in l. hand and raising flaming torch in r.; above, Nike flying r. to crown her. In exergue, barley ear to l. Rev. Σ[ΥΡΑΚΟΣΙΟ]Σ Head of Athena facing three-quarters l., wearing double-hook earring, necklace of pendant acorns with central gorgoneion-medallion and triple-crested Attic helmet on whose bowl signature ΕVΚ ? ΛΕΙΔ. On both sides, two dolphins swimming downwards. Rizzo pl. XLIII, 21 (these dies). Kraay-Hirmer pl. 112 (this reverse die). Alföldi, Florilegium Numismaticum p. 359, 6-7 (these dies). Jameson 1833 (this coin). AMB 465 (this coin). Tudeer 59. Coins, Artists, and Tyrants 59c (this coin).
Extremely rare and one of the greatest masterpieces of Classical numismatic Sicilian art. A magnificent portrait of superb style struck in high relief and with a lovely old cabinet tone. The usual die break on the
reverse, otherwise extremely fine.

Ex NAC 13, 1998, formerly exhibited at the Antike Museum Basel, 465 and NAC 48, 2008, 48 sales. From the Jameson and A.D.M. collection.

...

1235129467_Giovenalefirmaconingleseetedescook.jpg.69908def44f779f23c8db780f19ddc19.jpg

the coin minting process is absent → excess metal bounded by the ends of the red arrows; there cannot be a genuine tetradrachm (see picture below).

Tetradramma di Siracusa ... classica.И.jpg

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rorey36

E ti pareva.............

1178535.m.jpg Prospero Coll. (senza frattura)

2 ore fa, apollonia dice:

The usual die break on the
reverse, 

Usual mica tanto. Ho fatto un giro su acsearch e la maggioranza è senza die break.

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apollonia
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Segnalo questa discussione di Daniele Alberti di particolare interesse per la moneta in esame

https://www.lamoneta.it/topic/20854-i-capolavori/?tab=comments#comment-224709

2065446953_Giovenalefirmaconingleseetedescook.jpg.a48f6f7bc1cc4379ad4fb953d540e993.jpg

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apollonia
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Segnalo anche questo esemplare del CNG Shop venduto a $395000 ( https://cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=191429 )

896171.jpg.d796f541effebc3bb470ffc5839b834e.jpg

Eukleidas’ Revolutionary Facing Athena Tetradrachm
A Triumph of Art and a Failure of Technology

SICILY, Syracuse. Struck circa 405 BC. AR Tetradrachm (25mm, 16.98 g, 11h). Reverse die signed by Eukleidas. Fast quadriga driven left by female charioteer, holding reins in her left hand and raising a flaming torch in her right; above, Nike flying right to crown her; in exergue, ear of barley with stalk. / ΣΥ –Ρ – ΑΚ – ΟΣΙΩΝ. Head of Athena, inclined slightly to the left, wearing crested helmet, the cheek pieces raised on the sides, the visor and front of the helmet ornamented with vine and palmettes, the hair flowing back from the temples and down the neck, iris and pupil shown, double-hook earrings and necklace of pendant acorns with central medallion; across the bowl of the helmet the signature ΕV-Κ–ΛΕΙΔ-Α; around, two pairs of dolphins, the left pair swimming downwards (and partly missing due to the die break), the right pair snout to snout, the lower one emerging from behind a mass of hair. 

1933238995_Giovenalefirmaconingleseetedescook.jpg.078cc75ea528f0af2b5fc67f2a4e4fee.jpg

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apollonia
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Quanto al lapidario commento nel post # 2:

Assenza di coniatura e quindi fusione o pressofusione

Metallo in eccesso delimitato dalle estremità delle frecce rosse

Non può essere una moneta autentica

In conclusione, secondo l’autore del post, ci troviamo di fronte a una ciofeca da 275.000,00 CHF più commissioni.

332212467_Giovenalefirmaconingleseetedescook.jpg.c1bed037003ec2b060e53cd6666e30c2.jpg

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rorey36
46 minuti fa, apollonia dice:

In conclusione, secondo l’autore del post, ci troviamo di fronte a una ciofeca

Non ho ancora avuto il piacere di leggere un suo commento in cui scrive che la moneta in discussione è autentica.

 

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aemilianus253
6 ore fa, YV_ laMoneta dice:

the coin minting process is absent → excess metal bounded by the ends of the red arrows; there cannot be a genuine tetradrachm (see picture below).

Tetradramma di Siracusa ... classica.И.jpg

Fantastic new novel! 

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numa numa
5 ore fa, rorey36 dice:

E ti pareva.............

1178535.m.jpg Prospero Coll. (senza frattura)

Usual mica tanto. Ho fatto un giro su acsearch e la maggioranza è senza die break.

Rorey sono due emissioni ben distinte delle quali l’esemplare da lei postato appartiene alla seconda emissione, posteriore, con la quale l’incisore ha tentato di risolvere i problemi dati dal primo conio che si ruppe quasi immediatamente. E’ una delle emissioni piu’ note per Siracusa e per alcuni

l’apogeo della produzione monetale siracusana assieme all’Aretusa frontale. 

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rorey36

1151828589_NACsyracuse-tetradrachm-signed-by-4947338-XL.jpg.b83d70f2ed083134e0bc60f175214f79.jpg896171.jpg.d796f541effebc3bb470ffc5839b834e.jpg

Grazie per la spiegazione . Il D/ è lo stesso. Il R/ è stato rifatto dopo che il primo si era rotto. (Il r/ è mobile e si spacca prima.

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Archestrato
10 ore fa, YV_ laMoneta dice:

the coin minting process is absent → excess metal bounded by the ends of the red arrows; there cannot be a genuine tetradrachm (see picture below).

Tetradramma di Siracusa ... classica.И.jpg

Enough is enough! You are offending both the living and the dead now!

You have the courage to state that Robert Jameson (1861-1942) and Athos Moretti (1907-1993), two of the most important ancient coins collectors of the of the last hundred and twenty years, the experts at the Antike Museum Basel and those at NAC are "wrong" and you are "right" ?!

Maybe one day you will be prosecuted for the damage you are trying to create to the image and to the reputation of so many respectable experts. I wonder what @art74 thinks about this, but I don't believe we will be reading His answer on this forum any soon..

Personally, I just can hope that nobody will ever be forced to read again the poisonous words you are constantly spreading around on this pages without any  substantial proof or explanation (you just put tons of arrows and circles on simple photographs, and make absolute statements on that basis, when there are people who have the coins physically in their own hands)..

 

Goodnight and, hopefully, farewell 

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numa numa

I would not even waste too many words for what seem to qualify as rather silly and above all ignorant statements about one of the most intriguing sicilian issue.

unless of course it was meant to be a joke since the beginning, but in this case a joke of dubious stance.. 

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numa numa
9 ore fa, rorey36 dice:

1151828589_NACsyracuse-tetradrachm-signed-by-4947338-XL.jpg.b83d70f2ed083134e0bc60f175214f79.jpg896171.jpg.d796f541effebc3bb470ffc5839b834e.jpg

Grazie per la spiegazione . Il D/ è lo stesso. Il R/ è stato rifatto dopo che il primo si era rotto. (Il r/ è mobile e si spacca prima.

Il problema posto dall’emissione era il ritratto frontale della dea con il suo altissimo profilo il cui conio, sollecitato dalla pressione della battitura ha ceduto. Nel secondo conio, meno raffinato ( I’m sorry) del primo il profilo è piu’ basso 

sono state coniate anche delle dracme ed emidracme con la testa di Atena frontale, piuttosto rare, che  appartengono alla medesima serie

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YV_ laMoneta
16 ore fa, YV_ laMoneta dice:

the coin minting process is absent → excess metal bounded by the ends of the red arrows; there cannot be a genuine tetradrachm (see picture below).

Tetradramma di Siracusa ... classica.И.jpg

This product can not be a genuine coin for a completely elementary reason → a stamp for minting coins CAN NOT create a convex extended influx of excess metal, UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES.

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numa numa

Then you put in doubt decades of studies by renowned numismatists who have analyzed this issue, its die break problem and the several coins showing the progressive die rupture. 

 

If you want to make a convincing argument you should come better prepared next time, showing some more  evidence and not simply apodictically stating : “this CANNOT BE ..”

failing that I’m afraid one cannot take too seriously your argumentations 

Edited by numa numa

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numa numa

By the way if a die breaks I do not see what prevents the molten metal to flow across the break and create the flaw that we see in this coin.

besides the die rupture was a progressive one and we have a whole series of specimens showing the excess metal outflow from the die break at various, progressive, degrees of damage.

Not even the most refined faker could have controlled such process let alone the fact that fakers love to produce nice good looking coins not ones with metal flaws or derived by die breaks

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YV_ laMoneta
1 ora fa, numa numa dice:

By the way if a die breaks I do not see what prevents the molten metal to flow across the break and create the flaw that we see in this coin.

besides the die rupture was a progressive one and we have a whole series of specimens showing the excess metal outflow from the die break at various, progressive, degrees of damage.

Not even the most refined faker could have controlled such process let alone the fact that fakers love to produce nice good looking coins not ones with metal flaws or derived by die breaks

extremely unconvincing counter-argument, taking into account the impulsive nature of the coin minting process.

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YV_ laMoneta
2 ore fa, YV_ laMoneta dice:

This product can not be a genuine coin for a completely elementary reason → a stamp for minting coins CAN NOT create a convex extended influx of excess metal, UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES.

How, in the pulse process of coin minting, the buried surface of the stamp (blue outline → see picture below) can create on a genuine coin a convex extended influx of excess metal?

 

 

Tetradramma di Siracusa ... classica.И.1.jpg

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numa numa

By the way if a die breaks I do not see what prevents the molten metal to flow across the break and create the flaw that we see in this coin.

besides the die rupture was a progressive one and we have a whole series of specimens showing the excess metal outflow from the die break at various, progressive, degrees of damage.

Not even the most refined faker could have controlled such process let alone the fact that fakers love to produce nice good looking coins not ones with metal flaws or derived by die breaks

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numa numa
35 minuti fa, YV_ laMoneta dice:

How, in the pulse process of coin minting, the buried surface of the stamp (blue outline → see picture below) can create on a genuine coin a convex extended influx of excess metal?

 

 

Tetradramma di Siracusa ... classica.И.1.jpg

Should it be concave?

i don’t quite follow it. ...

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YV_ laMoneta

A - stamp of obverse of tetradrachm.

B - the end of the tetradrachm stamp, forming the coin field.

C - the recessed surface of the tetradrachm stamp forming the image of a coin.

 

Tetradramma di Siacusa ... classica.И.2.jpg

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YV_ laMoneta
3 ore fa, YV_ laMoneta dice:

How, in the pulse process of coin minting, the buried surface of the stamp (blue outline → see picture below) can create on a genuine coin a convex extended influx of excess metal?

 

 

Tetradramma di Siracusa ... classica.И.1.jpg

Do you, Archestrato, numa numa, or anyone else, answer my question (see text above)?

 

Tetradramma di Siacusa ... classica.И.3.jpg

Edited by YV_ laMoneta

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danielealberti
15 ore fa, rorey36 dice:

1151828589_NACsyracuse-tetradrachm-signed-by-4947338-XL.jpg.b83d70f2ed083134e0bc60f175214f79.jpg896171.jpg.d796f541effebc3bb470ffc5839b834e.jpg

Grazie per la spiegazione . Il D/ è lo stesso. Il R/ è stato rifatto dopo che il primo si era rotto. (Il r/ è mobile e si spacca prima.

Esatto rorey, il conio mobile o conio di martello è quello che assorbe la maggiore energia inflitta dal martello, e tende a rompersi più facilmente. Questo è un caso  per me emblematico , mi son sempre chiesto per quale motivo la resa del secondo conio sia così inferiore al primo. La risposta più frequente è che Eukleidas non volle rischiare nuovamente una rottura di conio dando meno profondità ad Atena, ma a me non sembra solo questione di profondità, sono le proporzioni della seconda Atena che proprio non mi piacciono, la Dea appare a mio avviso gonfia e sproporzionata, il suo sguardo lacconico, privo della fierezza del primo conio.

Anche interessante, e mi piacerebbe analizzare meglio, il conio d'incudine. Quanti coni di martello ha visto passare la quadriga prima di essere sostituita?

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danielealberti
21 minuti fa, YV_ laMoneta dice:

Do you, numa numa, or anyone else, answer my question (see text above)?

 

A causa del mio pessimo inglese faccio fatica a seguire l'argomentazione,  la questione riguarda i margini della rottura di conio che sulla moneta appaiono convessi se ben ho capito.

Se l'argomentazione è questa ( Numa Numa mi aiuti lei a comprendere)  la questione potrebbe avere un filo logico.

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