contromarca & satirica

[tibo_cardon]

Hello!

I'm a french student and I work about french satirical coins and politics countermark on the french coins during the XIX century (1789-1914 approximatelly). I have seen some messages about countermark of the head of napoleon on several italian coins like a 5 lires of Murat. I have referenced 10 italian coins like this and the bust on the 5 lires of Murat is also on a german and a suisse (?) coins. If someone know some coins like this, I will be very interested to see pictures of the coins. If you know articles or book about this kind of coutermark, I'm interested too. In France, we have nothing about this so informations are very rare and precious.

thank you very much

Thibault cardon

[Paleologo]

Traduco per chi sia interessato:

Salve!
Sono uno studente francese e lavoro sulle monete satiriche francesi e sulle contromarche politiche sulle monete francesi nel XIX secolo (circa 1789-1914). Ho visto alcuni messaggi riguardanti contromarche della testa di Napoleone su diverse monete italiane come un 5 lire di Murat. Ho referenziato 10 monete italiane come questa e il busto sul 5 lire di Murat si trova anche su una moneta tedesca e una svizzera (?). Se qualcuno conosce monete come questa, sarei molto interessato a vedere immagini delle monete. Se conoscete articoli o libri riguardo a questo tipo di contromarca, sarei ugualmente interessato. In Francia non abbiamo niente del genere così queste informazioni sono molto rare e preziose. 
Grazie mille
Thibault Cardon

Ciao, P. :)

[tibo_cardon]

no one could help me about this ?

[picchio]

Dear Thibault,

Didn't I answer to your topic by MP ? I'm sure I did it. By the way, there is no official literature regarding those countermark, which most of the time were engraved privately. It is possible to find Napoleon head on specimens struck in Italy from earlier Republic to relative’s coins such as Murat or Elisa. Similar situation comes in France on Louis XVIII coins with Napoleon head on. Joseph Napoleon in Spain it is quite easy to find coins with Napoleon engraved. For sure none of those engraved signs were prompted in a mint by a Napoleon Government, but comes from liberal decision of citizen or a good opportunity to have a benefit in numismatics. Honestly I consider just a few real genuine countermark really struck during period of 1806-1815.

Since you are a French I invite you to get in touch with Stephane Desrossoux at CGB, I think he has a good archive regarding those coins. Last but not least has been sold two month ago a collection in Paris just for those curious countermarked coins, with several really genuine.

[tibo_cardon]

I haven't your MP... but thank you for your help. I'm working with Stéphane desrousseaux and this coins are very problematic. He think that this kinf of countermark are made when the coins arrive in France in order to be melt down. you speak about spain coins with this kind of countermark, have you some pictures, adress or reference ? I'm very interested.

[picchio]

I saw Spanish coins with those countermarks, but except for a 4 reales of Josè Napoleon and a 20 reales 1810 I’m not owning others.

As I already wrote in previous topics, I do not know how many of them are really genuine and not done by purpose to generate numismatic interest. Please consider that most of these countermarks are focused on Napoleon period, and several of them are generated by the same “hammer”. I see no reason to punch a coins to melt it, and who's supposed to do it ?. Could be re-arranged by private identity for political reason, or propaganda, or satiric reason. For Example the one with Napoleon head on 5 Lire 1813 Gioacchino Murat, could have a lot of political reasons. Murat seems to be a King but his fortune comes from Napoleon, never forget it !. Or the others overstike on Repubblica Napolitana o Repubblica Romana: …. and then everything was eaten by Napoleon for example. Honestly I do not think that any official mint or Government hit with Napoleon head these coins.

[tibo_cardon]

I'm very interested to have pictures of the several exemplar you know.

Some countermarks are really punch to melt the coins, we have some archives about this. In this case, the countermark is made by french mint and mean that the coin is good for melt and can't anymore be in circulation. So the problem is why can we have some of this coins ?... I think that some of the countermark are in fact political propaganda. I've referenced more than 90 political countermark or engraving for the XIXe century in France. So that's something common. for the pictures, my adresse is [email protected]

If you want, I can sent to ou the part of my work about this countermark.

tibo

[roth37]

Here it is possible to find very rare two satirical countermarks of Napoléon:

http://www.roth37.it/COINS/Marialuigia/soldi.htm

Good luck for your study

roth 37

[tibo_cardon]

thank you roth37. I've seen your website especially the several french satirical coins and the countermark on italian coins. Can you send me a better picture of the 40 Lires of maria luigia ? If you know other coins, I'm very interested to see them. Of course, I will mention the provenance in my work and you could have a copy of it when it will be published.

tibo

[tibo_cardon]

I'm sorry to insist picchio, but I'm very interested by your pictures of the spanish coins with napoleon countermark. Can I have a good picture ?

thanks