Litra_SIRACUSA - SECONDA DEMOCRAZIA 466-405 A.C.

[Ictino]

Salve a tutti.

Litra_SIRACUSA - SECONDA DEMOCRAZIA 466-405 A.C.

Boehringer Series XIIIb; SNG ANS 137-43; HGC 2, 1375.

Peso: 0,76g

Mi piacerebbe ricevere opinioni dai più esperti sull'autenticità della moneta.

 

 

Modificato 6 Gennaio da Ictino

[didrachm]

Foto...please

[skubydu]

buona 

[didrachm]

17 ore fa, Ictino dice:

Salve a tutti.

Litra_SIRACUSA - SECONDA DEMOCRAZIA 466-405 A.C.

Boehringer Series XIIIb; SNG ANS 137-43; HGC 2, 1375.

Peso: 0,76g

Mi piacerebbe ricevere opinioni dai più esperti sull'autenticità della moneta.

 

 

Autentica e in buona conservazione

[Lelouch]

Ciao,

A die match if you are curious https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=7223921 / https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=11428289. Look at the 2nd tentacle from the left of the octopus especially.

Just my opinion but this 2nd tentacle is slightly odd, there is an very empty gap under it. If you were to look at Boehringer 415-422 (no retrograde R, hair combed forward, "skinny" Arethusa) https://www.lelouch.net/articles/die-munzen-von-syrakus-catalog#boehringer-415 the 2nd tentacle, all curls in towards the body. Also, the separated R glyph. 

In most the leg is connected to the top part of the R.

The form of the glyph recorded by Boehringer.

I don't think it is fake. Maybe barbarous?

That 2nd tentacle from the left still does look weird to me, generally they did try to keep them close to the center, probably to minimize stuff of flan. All of the Boehringer ones do, and unfortunately he is not explicit as to why he calls the barbarous ones barbarous, but tentacle positioning is one of them. Not the best Arethusa head and lettering either. See the barbarous ones around https://www.lelouch.net/articles/die-munzen-von-syrakus-catalog#boehringer-b15.

The red is where I would expect the tentacle would be.

Modificato 9 Gennaio da Lelouch
Added picture

[Ictino]

14 ore fa, Lelouch dice:

Ciao,

A die match if you are curious https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=7223921 / https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=11428289. Look at the 2nd tentacle from the left of the octopus especially.

Just my opinion but this 2nd tentacle is slightly odd, there is an very empty gap under it. If you were to look at Boehringer 415-422 (no retrograde R, hair combed forward, "skinny" Arethusa) https://www.lelouch.net/articles/die-munzen-von-syrakus-catalog#boehringer-415 the 2nd tentacle, all curls in towards the body. Also, the separated R glyph. 

In most the leg is connected to the top part of the R.

The form of the glyph recorded by Boehringer.

I don't think it is fake. Maybe barbarous?

That 2nd tentacle from the left still does look weird to me, generally they did try to keep them close to the center, probably to minimize stuff of flan. All of the Boehringer ones do, and unfortunately he is not explicit as to why he calls the barbarous ones barbarous, but tentacle positioning is one of them. Not the best Arethusa head and lettering either. See the barbarous ones around https://www.lelouch.net/articles/die-munzen-von-syrakus-catalog#boehringer-b15.

The red is where I would expect the tentacle would be.

 

Riguardo al secondo tentacolo però non noto nulla di diverso, nessuna anomalia.

[Lelouch]

I am not sure it is barbarous either so sorry if I am causing doubt.

9 hours ago, Ictino said:

Regarding the second tentacle, however, I don't notice anything different, no anomaly.

But I copy the 7 of 415 - 422 of Boehringer and some additional modern examples of the sub-series that are not in Boehringer, and the 2nd tentacles is always curved like an S. In general the curves of the octopus tentacles are pretty consistent between die. Additionally, some barbarous ones are shown with incorrect tentacle positioning.

 

L1 = https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=11755593
L2 = https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=13088111
L3 = https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=13178388 

It could be an official issue still, I don't know why Boehringer calls them barbarous. But the 2nd tentacle positioning is not like the ones recorded by Boehringer. 

However Boehringer doesn't illustrate all the litra of course. He states "Alle Litrenstempel abzubilden wäre zu ermüdend, darum ist nur eine Auswahl gegeben."

Modificato 10 Gennaio da Lelouch

[Ictino]

52 minuti fa, Lelouch dice:

I am not sure it is barbarous either so sorry if I am causing doubt.

But I copy the 7 of 415 - 422 of Boehringer and some additional modern examples of the sub-series that are not in Boehringer, and the 2nd tentacles is always curved like an S. In general the curves of the octopus tentacles are pretty consistent between die. Additionally, some barbarous ones are shown with incorrect tentacle positioning.

 

L1 = https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=11755593
L2 = https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=13088111
L3 = https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=13178388 

It could be an official issue still, I don't know why Boehringer calls them barbarous. But the 2nd tentacle positioning is not like the ones recorded by Boehringer. 

However Boehringer doesn't illustrate all the litra of course. He states "Alle Litrenstempel abzubilden wäre zu ermüdend, darum ist nur eine Auswahl gegeben."

 

Non stai procurando nessun dubbio, tranquillo. Sono aperto a qualsiasi confronto e non sono per nulla infastidito, anzi al contrario. Apprezzo il tuo intervento. Ne ho 2 in verità, ma non ho fatto caso se ci siano queste differenze con l’altra litra. Controllerò…

[skubydu]

C’è anche da considerare che ad Oggi possono esserci dei conii o combinazioni di tali non censite.

 

[Lelouch]

 

2 hours ago, skubydu said:

It should also be considered that today there may be unrecorded mintages or combinations of such.

100% Boehringer comments (translated) "To depict all the litra stamps would be too tedious, therefore only a selection is given.". Sebastiano Maltese in 2025 https://unive.academia.edu/SebastianoMaltese writes as well "For Syracuse alone, the database currently records 3,098 coins belonging to the series studied by Boehringer in 1929. This represents a significant expansion from the 1,534 specimens documented nearly a century ago, revealing 24 new die links among tetradrachms—some connecting previously distinct sequences—as well as 82 newly identified series of litrai."
There are a lot more litra dies unrecorded.

However, even of the additional 3 dies not in Boehringer I linked follow the same tentacle curve arrangement. All of the tentacles have the same amount of curves in the same orientation. I can find more examples on acsearch as well that follow the same arrangement.

If the vast majority of them follow the arrangement, are those the ones that don't barbarous? Again we don't know as Boehringer doesn't comment as to why he considers the barbarous ones barbarous. But the barbarous ones do have different tentacle orientations.
Already 11 reverse dies / octopus  (415-422 from Boeheringer + the 3 modern I showed now) have the same tentacle orientations / number of curves for all tentacles. If the vast majority follow the orientation it seems that the engravers of Syracuse were particular in copying the exact orientation of tentacles.

I have not done a die study myself, but I have looked at the majority of octopus litra on acsearch online at some point, and in my opinion a lot follow the same orientation though I don't have a count of dies.

But also apart from the tentacle positioning, what are other peoples thoughts on the R glyph, and maybe style of Arethusa head? This disconnected leg from the top triangle of the R glyph also stood out a bit.

Modificato 10 Gennaio da Lelouch

[Ictino]

Questa è l'altra litra. Il secondo tentacolo è diverso, non ci avevo fatto caso.

 

La  purtroppo non sappiamo come fosse...

[Lelouch]

Yes this has a similar "S" shape for the 2nd tentacle. I own some litra myself which can be viewed on my website. Again, even if it is barbarous or not, it is very fascinating. The other tentacles of your 1st coin seem to be correctly oriented, but as well the barbarous examples listed by Boehringer also have some correctly oriented.

Perhaps the fact we are even showing that is such a close imitation and that is hard to tell, and can fool 2500 years later is a testament to that clever trickster engraver. Who knows how many he might have scammed 😂

Or it could be perhaps some young / rookie engraver of the Syracuse mint, employed for the 1st of his litra dies?

Modificato 11 Gennaio da Lelouch

[Brennos2]

Il 10/01/2026 alle 16:34, Lelouch dice:

It could be an official issue still, I don't know why Boehringer calls them barbarous.

Christof Boehringer, and one may assume that he discussed this with his father, acknowledges that it can sometimes be difficult to say whether a coin is official or barbarous, but he proposes the following criteria:
1) Weight
2) Metal (subaerate or not)
3) Type (faithful to an existing type or fanciful)
4) Style
5) Legend

Weight is clearly the primary criterion for discrimination.

In my view, based on these criteria, the coin is an official issue.

[Deinomenid]

On 1/11/2026 at 7:12 PM, Brennos2 said:

Christof Boehringer, and one may assume that he discussed this with his father, acknowledges that it can sometimes be difficult to say whether a coin is official or barbarous, but he proposes the following criteria:

L’articolo completo è qui.

https://www.academia.edu/46592298/BOEHRINGER_C_Die_Barbarisierten_Münzen_von_Akragas_Gela_Leontinoi_und_Syrakus_im_5_Jahrhundert_v_Chr

Le argomentazioni iniziali sono in tedesco, ma le discussioni che seguono sono in italiano, con vari luminari della numismatica. “E — per non rovinare il divertimento — uno degli argomenti principali è che molte delle monete barbarizzate provengono da tre città specifiche vicine tra loro e da un arco di tempo molto limitato, per cui potrebbero essere associate a territori sotto il potere di Ducezio, anche se non si tratta, a quanto pare, di una sua monetazione propria.