Imitation Liard st Esprit - Frinco - Ercole et Claudio Mazzetti (1581-1587)

[Paul_c]

CARATTERISTICHE PRINCIPALI

Peso: Liard?
Diametro: 17mm for 0.84 gram
Metallo Presunto: billon

Hi all, my name is Paul (French) and as part of a lot, I have the following coin that I have been trying to identify. I originally took it for a Liard St Esprit from the French king Henri III but the inscription differs from the original coin. On the French forum numismatique.com (https://www.numismatique.com/), some members have indicated me that it could be an imitation from Ercole et Claudio Mazzetti (1581-1587) done in Frinco.

We are not 100% sure as a matching inscription can not be found online like on http://www.rhinocoins.com/ITALY/SEC1/FRIN1.HTML .

On mine, I can read (not great quality and the reading is not easy on some portions but some of the letters are ok to be read):

Avers: : +.HECREC(..)A.III.D.G.   -> HECR rather than HERC

Revers: + SIT NOM.DMI(...)ENE        -> DMI rather than DOMINI or DNI

I could not find matching coin online. Also most have this type have a different cross. If you have any information for me that I can share with the forum, that would be ace!

Thanks

Paul

 

PS: I can translate the message if required :

 

[coinscollector000]

12 ore fa, Paul_c dice:

CARATTERISTICHE PRINCIPALI

Peso: Liard?
Diametro: 17mm for 0.84 gram
Metallo Presunto: billon

Hi all, my name is Paul (French) and as part of a lot, I have the following coin that I have been trying to identify. I originally took it for a Liard St Esprit from the French king Henri III but the inscription differs from the original coin. On the French forum numismatique.com (https://www.numismatique.com/), some members have indicated me that it could be an imitation from Ercole et Claudio Mazzetti (1581-1587) done in Frinco.

We are not 100% sure as a matching inscription can not be found online like on http://www.rhinocoins.com/ITALY/SEC1/FRIN1.HTML .

On mine, I can read (not great quality and the reading is not easy on some portions but some of the letters are ok to be read):

Avers: : +.HECREC(..)A.III.D.G.   -> HECR rather than HERC

Revers: + SIT NOM.DMI(...)ENE        -> DMI rather than DOMINI or DNI

I could not find matching coin online. Also most have this type have a different cross. If you have any information for me that I can share with the forum, that would be ace!

Thanks

Paul

 

PS: I can translate the message if required :

 

Hi, nice to meet you.

Yes, this is an imitation of the Liard of st. Esprit, this is the link about it (there's the approximate price and the cataloging)

https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=4131&lot=1021

Have a nice day!

cc000

Modificato 12 Gennaio, 2021 da coinscollector000

[Paul_c]

Thanks coincollector000.

I personally do not have the MIR or any of the other book as for the reference. On the french forum, somebody checked the MIR the reference 654 (from your link). He mentions that it actually does not match the coin from the link.

MIR.654 has a H but no lys around it and it does not match with the inscription of he coin I have shared. Maybe Gamb.546, Biaggi 1497, CNI 7-10 provide more information (are they online)? 

Maybe this coinage is uncommon enough that the referencing is currently not exhaustive (possible with this type of mint based on imitation with not great quality?)?

Grazie mille : !!

Paul 

[Paul_c]

Actually correction from me: I don't really know. Mir. 653 and MIR.654 have the same pictures for one of the side so there might be a mistake. None starts with "HEC" or has "DMI" as well.

 

[giulira]

The most complete and accurate work on these imitation coins from Italy is the Gamberini di Scarfea (gamb.)

I will check if I have the right volume and look for your coin.

[coinscollector000]

2 ore fa, Paul_c dice:

Thanks coincollector000.

I personally do not have the MIR or any of the other book as for the reference. On the french forum, somebody checked the MIR the reference 654 (from your link). He mentions that it actually does not match the coin from the link.

MIR.654 has a H but no lys around it and it does not match with the inscription of he coin I have shared. Maybe Gamb.546, Biaggi 1497, CNI 7-10 provide more information (are they online)? 

Maybe this coinage is uncommon enough that the referencing is currently not exhaustive (possible with this type of mint based on imitation with not great quality?)?

Grazie mille : !!

Paul 

Hi, you're welcome:)

I think that the correct coin is the coin in the link.

You're coin is a little bigger than the coin in the link,  but it's the correct coin.

Wait the opinions of others experts.

Have a nice day!

cc000

 

[giulira]

The correct book for the reference is:

GAMBERINI DI SCARFEA C. – Le imitazioni e le contraffazioni monetarie nel Mondo Parte quarta. Le principali imitazioni e contraffazioni italiane e straniere di monete di zecche italiane medioevali e moderne. Tomo primo: Svizzera, Francia, Paesi Bassi, Ungheria, Polonia. Bologna, 1972. pp. 243

so it is part 4 book 1, not easy to find. For sure somebody in the forum has it.

Unfortunately I have only part 3 of the publication.

[Paul_c]

Hi,

could anybody help me?

Thanks

Paul

[Paul_c]

Hi every body, a french fellow has created a website on italian imitation of the french liard: https://liardsitaliens.blogspot.com . It is in french however but easy to search.

According to this https://liardsitaliens.blogspot.com/p/passerano-famille-radicati_3.html ), my coin isn ot from  Frinco but from the Radicati family. One side matches but not the over. I will get deepe into this but it could be interesting to share the website with the italian community.

Any opinion is welcome.

Cheers

Paul