unknown denaro?

[kishim]

I would like to know what this coin is. For me, it looks like an Italian denaro. I want to ask for opinions by Italian collectors/specialists, but I don't understand Italian language very well. Could some one help me? Thanks in advance.

[rob]

Hello Kishim, nice coin, although I'm not sure that it's Italian. Perhaps you can help us identify it by providing weight and diameter?

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Ciao Kishim, bella moneta, anche se non sono sicuro sia italiana. Forse ci puoi aiutare dandoci il peso ed il diametro?

[rob]

I read:

- Cross pattée, sorrounded by + RAIM COM --> I imagine that stands for Raim[undus] Com[es]

- Gothic F[?], sorrouded by MONTIS CAS[?] ---> that's the name of the town in which it was minted... but what's the modern name?

The style is XIV-XV century, perhaps XVI cent.

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Leggo:

- Croce patente, circondata da + RAIM COM

- F[?] gotica, circondata da MONTIS CAS[?]

Al momento non riconosco la zecca. Lo stile è sec. XIV-XV, forse XVI.

[kishim]

Hello rob,

Thank you very much for your reply. I think your reading is very right. I'm not sure if it is Italian, either.

If you have time, could you upload my question and picture in the medieval discussion part of the LAMONETA.IT? Maybe that would help by attracting more attention by more medieval experts. I can't write Italian very well. Thanks!

kishim

[kishim]

The diameter is 1.7 cm. I can't weigh the coin.

[okt]

I tell you my first thoughts, but I couldn't find any evidence for them...

RAIM and a tower: Raimondo della Torre (Aquileia)?

MONTIS CAS(S) Montecassino?

RAIM or RAIN? Could it mean Rainardus (Raynaud)?

Hi

[kishim]

Thanks okt!

Huum, interesting!

Are Aquileia, Raynaud and Montecassino located very close each other?

[kishim]

I read:

- Cross pattée, sorrounded by + RAIM COM --> I imagine that stands for Raim[undus] Com[es]

- Gothic F[?], sorrouded by MONTIS CAS[?] ---> that's the name of the town in which it was minted... but what's the modern name?

The style is XIV-XV century, perhaps XVI cent.

----

Leggo:

- Croce patente, circondata da + RAIM COM

- F[?] gotica, circondata da MONTIS CAS[?]

Al momento non riconosco la zecca. Lo stile è sec. XIV-XV, forse XVI.

[rob]

Thanks okt!

Huum, interesting!

Are Aquileia, Raynaud and Montecassino located very close each other?

Aquileia and Montecassino are about 600 km from each other, Raynaud is the possible name of the count (Com[es] on the coin). It is definitely not of Aquileia as the style and figures don't match, and I am not aware of any coinage struck by the Abbey of Montecassino.

I may be wrong, but the style and "feel" don't look Italian to me, and neither French. The lettering and the metal (low silver, mostly copper judging by the colour) tell it's probably late medieval, my bet being XV century. I was looking for matches in the southern German area, or possibly the Netherlands, but I'm still clutching at straws. There are clues there, but I can't read them yet...

[avgvstvs]

Renier au Long Col, comte de Hainaut? Facétie monétaire?

http://books.google.it/books?id=b1OuqJl-Ln...result#PPR82,M1

[kishim]

rob,

Sounds very difficult.......

Obverse side is probably

MONTISCAS?

Reverse

+RAIN(H?)COM (not sure)

It was included in a combined lots on a German coin auction, so you might be right. Thanks.

[kishim]

Thanks very much avgvstvs!

I think you are absolutely right!

Thanks for you guys' helps, rob, okt and avgvstvs!

Sincerely,

kishim

[rob]

Renier au Long Col, comte de Hainaut? Facétie monétaire?

http://books.google.it/books?id=b1OuqJl-Ln...result#PPR82,M1

:D Ha Ha Ha! More or less a numismatic practical joke from the XIX century! That's sooo cool!

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Fortissimo come sempre avgvstvs! Mia moglie ed io ci siamo messi a ridere quando abbiamo visto la tua risposta: le avevo detto che quella moneta non mi quadrava, c'era qualcosa di sbagliato, e lei m'aveva detto "l'avranno inventata!"... vedi un po' che ci ha azzeccato lei, anche se di monete per sua ammissione non ci capisce nulla? :D

[kishim]

Oh, does that mean it is made in 19th century?

[rob]

Oh, does that mean it is made in 19th century?

Cette pièce figure comme "facetie monetaire" dans le Catalogue de la vente Bigant, Douai, 8 mai 1860, p. 83, nr. 800. Ses légendes sont + RAIN' . COME / + MONTIS CAS...

The note 5 to the paragraph about invented coins says it was published in the sales catalogue of the Bigant auction of the 8th of May, 1860. The coin may of course be older, but I can't comment on that as I simpy don't know.

[kishim]

What "facetie monetaire" means?

numismatic joke/fantasy?

[rob]

Exactly!

[kishim]

Thank you very much for your help.

I think you guys had better not use Italian here.

I was really surprised and shocked to see you are laughing at me in Italian. Thanks for your kindness though.

[rob]

Thank you very much for your help.

I think you guys had better not use Italian here.

I was really surprised and shocked to see you are laughing at me in Italian. Thanks for your kindness though.

Laughing at you? Not at all! If you refer to my previous post, I was telling about how I told my wife I was puzzled by this coin, and she said "well, it must have been someone's creation". She does not understand much about coins and is not interested at all in them as a collector, so we both had to laugh when we found out she was right.

By the way your coin is really interesting and it intrigued me as I felt there was something quite wrong with it but couldn't understand what it was. I had never seen it before, so thank you for showing it to us.

[luke_idk]

Thank you very much for your help.

I think you guys had better not use Italian here.

I was really surprised and shocked to see you are laughing at me in Italian. Thanks for your kindness though.

No laughing, at all; don't worry. The matter's different. It would be quite strange to speak English amongst Italian people, so that this discussion is bilingual (English for you, Italian, for the others).

Bye.