Lombardia Testone di Galeazzo Maria Sforza

[Sleepy Giraffe]

Hello! My name is Alexander, Russia. I bought teston of Galeazzo Maria Sforza recently. I'd like to understand a legend but I have a difficulties with translation.

Legend of obverse is clear to me. GALEAZ(zo) M(aria) SF(orza) VICECO(mes) DVX M(edio)L(an)I Q(u)I(n)T(us) - Galeazzo Maria Sforza, viscount, 5-th duke of Milan. Face above duke's head is a face of Ambrosius Mediolanensis (as I suppose). He is a heavenly protector of city.

Unfortunately I can't translate a legend of reverse. The text is:

P(a)P(iae) ANGLE(riae or -riaeque) O3(?) CO(mes) AC IANVE D(ominus) - graf (count) of Pavia, Angera (?) O3 (= QUE?) and dominus of Genoa.

As you can see, I am not sure in 2 words - ANGLE and O3. Can you help me with right translation? Sorry for my English. Alexander.

[dabbene]

The legend is :

PaPie ANGLEriae Qve COmes AC IANVaE Dominvs ( Conte di Pavia e di Angera e Signore di Genova ),

good evening,

Mario

[Sleepy Giraffe]

Thank you. I have no questions about ANGLE (Angera) because I supposed this variant already.

But I am not sure in QUE (Q3). I studied other coins in internet and I found that first letter is Q really (not O as I wrote before). But there are 2 strangenesses:

1) Word QUE has no sense in this legend. If you'll find a translation in dictionary, you'll see that using of this word is illogical. QUE is not equal to AC or ET. Also I didn't found a coins where QUE used without shortening (only Q3).

2) I can suppose that 3 = E (in mirror). In other words, Q3 = QE = QvE. But letter 'E' was used in ANGLE. It has other spelling. Therefore it's not E exactly. I think this symbol means any letters which were not written in legend. I can see two symbols '3' on reverse. In first case it was used in G3 M (Galeazzo Maria) within the meaning of 'aleazzo'. In second case '3' means UE in QUE (if it's really QUE). Sense is different. It proves that '3' has not an exact meaning.

[adamaney]

"1) Word QUE has no sense in this legend."

why??

which dictionary? we can't use translations of classical latin here, nor think with same style of writing..

"2) I can suppose that 3 = E (in mirror)"

paleographically the symbol like modern "3", here seems simply for abbreviation. , and not the same meaning as the symbol used after the G, you are right.

"I think this symbol means any letters which were not written in legend. I can see two symbols '3' on reverse. In first case it was used in G3 M (Galeazzo Maria) within the meaning of 'aleazzo'. In second case '3' means UE in QUE (if it's really QUE). Sense is different. It proves that '3' has not an exact meaning."

yes

[dabbene]

The legend is :

PP ANGLE Q3 CO AC IANVE D in roman caracthers

where :

PP = PAVIA

ANGLE = ANGERA

Q3 = ( que ) = E, congiunzione

CO ( COmes ) = CONTE

AC = E, congiunzione

IANVE = GENOVA

D = DUCA

Si potrebbe concludere con Conte di Pavia e di Angera e Signore di Genova

Good morning and greetings for you,

Mario

Modificato 24 Dicembre, 2012 da dabbene

[Sleepy Giraffe]

Thank you for answers.

1) I can't translate QUE to italian or english languages, it's difficult to explain a sense. But I can translate to russian, and this word has other sense than AC or ET. It doesn't fit for this legend.

2) Let's suppose that Q3 = QUE in meaning 'and'. In this case in legend was used 2 different words with equal meaning (que = ac). I think it's strange. Why wasn't used AC or QUE twice?..

3) I can't find a coin or portrait where QUE used without shortening. So there are not proofs that Q3 = QUE.

Do you agree with my arguments?

[dabbene]

Good evening,

is difficult explain, but both Q3 and AC are conjunctions with main and .

Q3 = ( que ) = E = and

AC = E = and

both conjunctions

the main of legend is : Conte di Pavia e di Angera e Signore di Genova, this is the translation.

Perhaps the difference is wanted, i presume,

Mario

Modificato 24 Dicembre, 2012 da dabbene

[Sleepy Giraffe]

Ok, let's change a subject. I'd like to ask about coat of arms at reverse. Serpent in center is coat of arms of Visconti. Why duke from Sforza family used this serpent (biscione)? I think his family had own coat of arms... It's strange for me. What means buckets and comets near serpent?

[dabbene]

Good morning,

there are many legends on the origin of serpent ; Carlo Crippa in " Le monete di Milano " tells of them.

Really becomes the emblem of Visconti ; the fortune of this emblem persists in the time and continues symbol of Sforza and the city of Milan.

Mario

Modificato 26 Dicembre, 2012 da dabbene

[Paleologo]

Dear Alexander

1) I can't translate QUE to italian or english languages, it's difficult to explain a sense. But I can translate to russian, and this word has other sense than AC or ET. It doesn't fit for this legend.

It is correct that in Latin the conjunction -que (written this way because it is always attached to the previous word) has a different meaning as ac or et. Actually, in classical Latin, it would imply a very strong link between the connected words: senatus populusque romanus.

In the present case, comes papiae angleraeque would mean "count of Pavia and Angera" implying that the two locations of "Pavia" and "Anglera" have a strong connection between them. Were they parts of a single fief? I don't know, but as stated above we should not overexplain, or take it for granted that a 14c. century engraver would make use of Latin in the classical way. Actually, if he was literate, as he probably was, he would be much more used to the medieval and ecclesiastical usage of Latin. He might as well use -que as a plain equivalent of et.

So I don't think you should be unsatisfied with the translation given above, which in my opinion makes complete sense in its context.

Regards, P.

[Sleepy Giraffe]

I found medal of other duke - Filippo Maria Visconti - with full legend (without shortenings). Q3 is really means QUE. You can see this medal in italian Wikipedia (to the point I think it's a late copy :blum:). Also I consulted on the russian forum with experts on Latin. You are right, que = et in this case. Word ''que'' has a special rules of use.

I think that this topic is completed. Thank you for help.

[dabbene]

O.K., good evening, Carlo Crippa the greatest expert of numismatic for Milan doesn' t make mistakes ever, you can trust of this ,

Mario

Modificato 2 Gennaio, 2013 da dabbene