Hekte di Mitilene con la Gorgone ed Eracle

[apollonia]

Nomos, Auction 9, lot 141, 21.10.2014

GREEK COINS 
Lesbos 
Mytilene, c. 521-478 BC. Hekte (Electrum, 9mm, 2.53 g 12). Gorgoneion facing, surrounded by snakes and with a protruding tongue. Rev. Bearded head of Herakles to right, wearing lionskin headdress; neck truncation formed by two rows of small squares, four above and six below; behind head, rectangle with irregular field; all incuse. BMC 14. Bodenstedt 19.1 (c/γ). SNG von Aulock 1691. A splendid, toned and beautifully struck example. Extremely fine. Ex Gemini VI, 10 January 2010, 141.

This is an exceptionally bold example of a series of issues from Mytilene that is characterized by having a complete type in incuse on the reverse, rather than the traditional incuse square. However, to remind the user of that original style of incuse reverse, utilized by all the early minters of electrum, a tiny square appears on the reverse behind the main type.

 

Novantuno esemplari in acsearch, di cui quattro con Eracle rivolto a sinistra. Tutti autentici? Quando c’è la Gorgone, ho il terrore!

[YV_ laMoneta]

8 ore fa, apollonia dice:

Номос, Аукцион 9, лот 141, 21.10.2014

ГРЕЧЕСКИЕ МОНЕТЫ 
Лесбос 
Митилини, ок. 521-478 гг. До н. Гекте (Электрум, 9мм, 2,53 г 12). Горгона лицом к лицу, в окружении змей и с высунутым языком. Преподобный бородатый голова Геракла справа, в головном уборе из львиной шкуры; усечение шеи, образованное четырьмя рядами маленьких квадратов, четыре сверху и шесть снизу; за головой прямоугольник с неровным полем; все обвиняют BMC 14. Боденштедт 19,1 (с / у). SNG von Aulock 1691. Великолепный, тонированный и красиво пораженный пример. Очень хорошо. Ex Gemini VI, 10 января 2010 г., 141.

Это исключительно смелый пример серии вопросов из Митилини, которая характеризуется полным Тем не менее, это напоминает нам об оригинальном стиле incuse reverse, использовавшемся в первые минуты электрума, в крошечном квадрате появляется на оборотной стороне позади основного типа.

 

Девяносто экземпляров в наборе, четыре из которых с Гераклом обращены влево. Все подлинно? Когда есть Горгона, я в ужасе!

the process of coinage is absent in many ways.

 

Modificato 13 Luglio, 2019 da YV_ laMoneta

[paparoupa]

I don't think anyone has produced an EL fake that is convincing enough and the ones I have seen are obvious... The dimensions are very small so engraving is not easy and the value of the metal can be 70-80 euros so it's not a big profit for the forger comparing to bronze and silver

[YV_ laMoneta]

11 minuti fa, paparoupa dice:

I don't think anyone has produced an EL fake that is convincing enough and the ones I have seen are obvious... The dimensions are very small so engraving is not easy and the value of the metal can be 70-80 euros so it's not a big profit for the forger comparing to bronze and silver

Price realized: 4600 CHF.

[apollonia]

Esemplare con Eracle a sinistra (Roma Numismatics 15).

Greek 
Lesbos, Mytilene EL Hekte. Circa 521-478 BC. Facing gorgoneion with protruding tongue / Incuse bearded head of Herakles to left, wearing lion skin headdress; small incuse square behind, neck truncation formed by two rows of small squares. Bodenstedt 19.2; BMC -; Boston MFA -; SNG Copenhagen -; SNG von Aulock -. 2.52g, 10mm, 6h.
Mint State. Extremely Rare, only one example recorded by Bodenstedt in the National Museum, Athens, and two others in commerce.
Ex Kleines Meisterwerk Collection, Roma Numismatics X, 27 September 2015, lot 435.
This exceptionally rare variety with the incuse head of Herakles facing left also displays an intricately detailed gorgon. Aside from the careful attention the engraver has lavished on such details as the gorgon's teeth and serpent heads, we also see the scaly skin the gorgon has been given between her hair and eyebrows. Even on a larger coin this would be impressive - that this fine work has been accomplished on such a small flan is nothing short of astounding.

Starting price: 2.400,00 GBP, Estimate: 3.000,00 GBP, Result: 4.500,00 GBP.

[YV_ laMoneta]

8 ore fa, YV_ laMoneta dice:

the process of coinage is absent in many ways.

 

addition:

- in green circles, open gas sinks from broken air bubbles formed during the casting process of this product are shown (see picture below).

- in the blue circles are shown numerous subcortical shells from unbroken air bubbles formed during the casting process of this product (see picture below).

 

Modificato 13 Luglio, 2019 da YV_ laMoneta

[YV_ laMoneta]

2 ore fa, apollonia dice:

Esemplare con Eracle a sinistra (Roma Numismatics 15).

Greek 
Lesbos, Mytilene EL Hekte. Circa 521-478 BC. Facing gorgoneion with protruding tongue / Incuse bearded head of Herakles to left, wearing lion skin headdress; small incuse square behind, neck truncation formed by two rows of small squares. Bodenstedt 19.2; BMC -; Boston MFA -; SNG Copenhagen -; SNG von Aulock -. 2.52g, 10mm, 6h.
Mint State. Extremely Rare, only one example recorded by Bodenstedt in the National Museum, Athens, and two others in commerce.
Ex Kleines Meisterwerk Collection, Roma Numismatics X, 27 September 2015, lot 435.
This exceptionally rare variety with the incuse head of Herakles facing left also displays an intricately detailed gorgon. Aside from the careful attention the engraver has lavished on such details as the gorgon's teeth and serpent heads, we also see the scaly skin the gorgon has been given between her hair and eyebrows. Even on a larger coin this would be impressive - that this fine work has been accomplished on such a small flan is nothing short of astounding.

Starting price: 2.400,00 GBP, Estimate: 3.000,00 GBP, Result: 4.500,00 GBP.

This is also a rough fake:

- in green circles, open gas sinks from burst air bubbles formed during the casting process of this product are shown;

- in the blue circles are shown numerous subcortical shells from unbroken air bubbles formed during the casting process of this product (see picture below).

 

[paparoupa]

This is typical surface of mytilenean hektes, there is nothing wrong with them.

[YV_ laMoneta]

47 minuti fa, paparoupa dice:

This is ?typical surface? of mytilenean hektes, there is nothing wrong with them.

why on these “typical surfaces”, when these “coins” were minted, the following was formed:

a) holes in green circles;

b) excess metal drop-shaped in blue circles (see my pictures above)?

[apollonia]

La ‘condanna’ di YV_laMoneta di queste e di altre monete si basa sulla comparsa in superficie sia di forellini sia di eccesso di metallo sotto forma di gocce. La domanda è se queste caratteristiche possono essere prodotte dalla coniazione oppure sono necessariamente connesse alla fusione.

Un esperto di coniazione/fusione dovrebbe avere la risposta.

 

YV_laMoneta's 'condemnation' of these and other coins is based on the appearance on the surface of both holes and excess metal in the form of drops. The question is whether these characteristics can be produced by minting or are necessarily related to fusion.

A minting/casting expert should have the answer.

 

[paparoupa]

13 hours ago, apollonia said:

YV_laMoneta's 'condemnation' of these and other coins is based on the appearance on the surface of both holes and excess metal in the form of drops. The question is whether these characteristics can be produced by minting or are necessarily related to fusion.

A minting/casting expert should have the answer.

Please don't forget that these are coins of 10mm diameter and with photos of 10x magnification you can circle similar surface areas in almost all Lesbian hektes. Open some high resolution photos in HA and see for yourself e.g.

https://coins.ha.com/itm/greek/ancient-coins/ancients-lesbos-mytilene-ca-412-378-bc-el-sixth-stater-or-hecte-10mm-255-gm-5h-ngc-au-5-5-5-/a/3057-30114.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515

[Ospite]

7 minuti fa, paparoupa dice:

photos of 10x magnification you can circle similar surface areas in almost all Lesbian hektes.

and in all coins.

All forgeries ? 

[YV_ laMoneta]

44 minuti fa, paparoupa dice:

Please don't forget that these are coins of 10mm diameter and with photos of 10x magnification you can circle similar surface areas in almost all Lesbian hektes. Open some high resolution photos in HA and see for yourself e.g.

https://coins.ha.com/itm/greek/ancient-coins/ancients-lesbos-mytilene-ca-412-378-bc-el-sixth-stater-or-hecte-10mm-255-gm-5h-ngc-au-5-5-5-/a/3057-30114.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515

It is also a rough fake, for a very simple reason → a stamp for minting coins, under no circumstances, is not able to create convex, drop-shaped elements.

 

[paparoupa]

This is starting to resemble a flat-earthers' conspiracy theory thread....

[Ospite]

@YV_ laMoneta

Hallo YV !

please show us an authentic ancient coin.

Thanks.

[YV_ laMoneta]

49 minuti fa, rorey36 dice:

@YV_ laMoneta

Hallo YV !

please show us an authentic ancient coin.

Thanks.

So far I have only such a selection of genuine coins → Genuine coins of the Russian Empire (see picture and link).

The database of more ancient coins has not yet compiled.

https://www.pinterest.ru/yurivasiliev9/

Modificato 15 Luglio, 2019 da YV_ laMoneta

[Ospite]

L'amico Yuri Vasiliev ci informa che le uniche monete autentiche al mondo sono monete dell'Impero russo che non mi riesce di vedere. 

[YV_ laMoneta]

33 minuti fa, YV_ laMoneta dice:

So far I have only such a selection of genuine coins → Genuine coins of the Russian Empire (see picture and link).

The database of more ancient coins has not yet compiled.

https://www.pinterest.ru/yurivasiliev9/

addition → Genuine coins of the Russian Empire (see link below).

https://www.pinterest.ru/yurivasiliev9/подлинные-монеты-российской-империи-genuine-coins-/

[Ospite]

https://www.academia.edu/39163502/The_Earliest_Russian_Coins

[apollonia]

@YV_laMoneta

As for your statement that “a stamp for minting coins, under no circumstances, is not able to create convex, drop-shaped elements.”, please take into account that, as far as the compressed pharmaceutical tablets technology is concerned, common tablet profiles are convex.

Moreover, Dome Matrix Technology for modulating drug release after oral administration of solid dosage forms makes available both flat/concave and flat/convex modules.

 

[gigetto13]

2 ore fa, apollonia dice:

@YV_laMoneta

As for your statement that “a stamp for minting coins, under no circumstances, is not able to create convex, drop-shaped elements.”, please take into account that, as far as the compressed pharmaceutical tablets technology is concerned, common tablet profiles are convex.

Moreover, Dome Matrix Technology for modulating drug release after oral administration of solid dosage forms makes available both flat/concave and flat/convex modules.

 

Al di là della nostra comune "deviazione professionale" che apprezzo caro @apollonia, non posso non rilevare che le frasi del nostro amico russo siano sempre le stesse. Credo abbia una specie di (breve) catalogo da cui con copia e incolla ripete ad libitum sempre le stesse frasi fatte, per qualsiasi tipo di monetazione senza nemmeno diversificare a seconda del post, che siano monete greche, romane, moderne (ammetto, mi manca qualche sua convinzione sulle medioevali che sono le mie preferite).

Addirittura il colore dei suoi famigerati e simpaticissimi circoletti è sempre quello: verdi e blu (o blu e verdi non ricordo) per le due tipologie di "prove" che con inarrestabile pervicacia continua a cercare manco fossero parte di un Aguzzate la vista paranoico.

Però lo ammetto, da profano sulle tecniche di coniazione e/o fusione, mi diverto.

[Arka]

Gli hecte, come del resto gli stateri in elettro, hanno un metallo molto particolare che in foto non rende. In mano hanno un altro aspetto che in foto. Per questo giudicare la bontà di una moneta in elettro da una foto risulta molto difficile.

Arka

Diligite iustitiam

[apollonia]

C’è anche da tener presente che le aree ruvide e bucherellate di un conio arrugginito o corroso in superficie sono trasferite sulla moneta come zone di metallo rialzato.

It should also be noted that the roughened and pitted areas of a die with a rusted or corroded surface will be transferred to the coin as areas of raised metal.