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seppo

Venezia: moneta lunga/corta, ducato corrente, etc.

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seppo

Hello all! Can anyone explain to a layman in a concise way the two different exchange rates in 18th century Venice: moneta corta and moneta lunga?

As far as I can understand, the silver ducat (31.896g ducatone, later 23.4g ducatello) divided into 124 soldi (6 lire 4 soldi) was the physical coin representing the moneta corta, while the gold zecchino was somehow related to moneta lunga, and in that system a ducat was equal to 8 lire or 160 soldi and a zecchino was worth 22 lire (?)

How were these two parallel systems created and where was each of them used? Which one would ordinary people use in everyday life - was a silver ducat worth 124 or 160 soldi on the street? And what was the ducato corrente?

It was complicated enough before I found out about these two different exchange rates :blink:

Edited by seppo

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417sonia
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Buona giornata

I use google translator

I have a survey covering 1700.

In recent years the monetary unit used in transactions in Venice was the "Lira veneta" with its division into "Soldi" and "Denari"; 1 Lira veneta = 20 Soldi e1 Soldo = 12 Denari, so that 1 Lira veneta = 240 Denari.

In the territories subject to Venice was in use the "Valuta alla parte" o "moneta corta" represented by 1 Ducato = 6:4 Lire venete and the "Valuta di piazza" o "moneta lunga" that the Ducato was equivalent to 7 Lire and 10 Soldi. This until 1713 .... then by 1733 the "Valuta di piazza" o "moneta lunga" was paid to the Ducato = 8 Lire.

These changes were very dynamic and it is difficult for me to follow them in all their changes.

I hope I was enough.

Ho un rilievo che riguarda il 1700.

In questi anni l'unità monetaria usata a Venezia nelle transazioni era la "Lira veneta" con la sua suddivisione in "Soldi" e "Denari"; 1 Lira veneta = 20 Soldi e 1 Soldo = 12 Denari; così che 1 Lira = 240 Denari.

Nei territori sottomessi a Venezia era in uso la "Valuta alla parte" o "moneta corta" rappresentata da 1 Ducato = 6:4 Lire venete e la "Valuta di piazza" o "moneta lunga" secondo cui il Ducato equivaleva a 7 Lire e 10 Soldi. Questo fino al 1713....successivamente dal 1733 la "Valuta di piazza" o "moneta lunga" faceva corrispondere il Ducato a 8 Lire.

Questi erano cambi molto dinamici ed è per me difficile seguirli in tutti i loro cambiamenti.

Spero di essere stato sufficiente.

Saluti

Luciano

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417sonia
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Add

The "moneta lunga" was the accounting units used in administrative surveys.

The difference between the Ducato d'oro (Zecchino) and Ducato d'argento from 124 or 160 of the writedown money is typically linked to the period and the amount of silver present in different currencies ..

The Ducato d'oro (Zecchino) is the basis of which were briefed:

Ducatone Leone = 124 Soldi

Giustina Maggiore = 160 Soldi

Ducatone Santa Giustina = 124 Soldi

Ducatello = 124 Soldi

What changed was the silver content and weight.

Aggiungo

La moneta lunga era l'unità contabile usata nelle rilevazioni amministrative.

La differenza tra Ducato d'oro (Zecchino) e Ducato d'argento da 124 o 160 soldi è tipica della svalutazione legata al periodo e dalla differente quantità di argento presente nelle varie monete..

Il Ducato d'oro (Zecchino) è la base alla quale andavano ragguagliati i:

Ducatone Leone = 124 Soldi

Giustina Maggiore = 160 Soldi

Ducatone Santa Giustina = 124 Soldi

Ducatello = 124 Soldi

Quello che cambiava era il contenuto d'argento ed il peso.

:)

Edited by 417sonia
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Paleologo

Standard behavior after gold currency was re-established in Western Europe (mid-late XIII c.): gold was stable, silver got debased. So if you have two different reckoning systems, one for (gold-based) money of account, another for (silver-based) physical coins, typically the one with higher price of gold in terms of silver coins is the "physical" one, i.e. the market value of coins ("moneta di piazza") showing their reduced purchasing value compared to gold. The other one is the "moneta di conto" (money of account) i.e. the system used for representing values in official documents, which is nominally stable. Hope this helps :rolleyes:

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Arka

Il ducato di Domenico Contarini, detto ducatello, non riporta più il valore in soldi veneti. Questo perchè il suo valore reale era fluttuante in base ai rapporti fra l'oro e l'argento. Continuarono pure le coniazioni delle Giustine e degli scudi d'argento e le loro frazioni con il valore indicato in soldi (140 soldi per lo scudo, 70 per il mezzo, 35 per il quarto e 124 per la Giustina, 62 per la mezza, 31 per il quarto, ecc..). Tuttavia nessuno, credo, le spendeva per il valore nominale. Infatti (vedi Papadopoli) queste monete venivano coniate praticamente solo in occasione dell'elezione di un nuovo doge e venivano lanciate alla folla nel giorno dell'insediamento.

Arka

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seppo

Thanks for the replies. How does the following excerpt sound then, is it correct (seems like there's a contradiction)? I just found it on books.google.com (John Day: Money and finance in the age of merchant capitalism):

"By the end of the Republic, the monetary standard, based ultimately on silver coinage, had come to be expressed in two sets of legal exchange rates. The first, called 'short money' (moneta corta) dated from 1687 when a new silver ducat, the ducatello of 826/1000 fine, was rated at 124s. like the gold ducat of 1472 and the original silver ducat of 1562. The second, dating from 1739, set the rate on the zecchino at £22 and the ducat at £8. It was known as 'long money' (moneta lunga) or 'market-rated currency' (valuta di piazza) which had been the case before 1739. Short money was used in government accounts; long money, by and large, in wholesale trade."

Edited by seppo

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Paleologo

This is not completely clear to me either. I would definitely trust John Day anyway. I guess the key is in the fact that the "legal" lira used in "short money" is much less debased than the "long money" or "market-value" lira. So the ducatello, i.e. the "good silver" equivalent of the gold ducato, has a lower value in terms of the "legal" lira (6£ 4s) than in terms of the "market" lira (8£), which was a "lira di piccoli", that is, physically made up of a large number of heavily-debased billon coins. In this context, even if the gold/silver rate may vary, good-silver coins like the ducatello behaved much like gold coins, i.e. were tendentially stable against continuously sliding billon coins. This was the 18th c. equivalent to the 14th c. gold/silver relationship. Gold in this context was treated somewhat again as commodity more than as money.

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seppo

I just found another useful bit of information on books.google.com (Frederic Chapin Lane: Venetian Ships and Shipbuilders of the Renaissance, p. 252, with several footnote references to Papadopoli's Le monete di Venezia which I unfortunately haven't found online).

But even with this information, a concise explanation of moneta corta and moneta lunga in layman's terms might be possible :) :

"[The withdrawal of grossi in 1472] left two systems of moneys of account: the lira di grossi on a gold basis for represented by the gold DUCAT coin, and the lira di piccoli on a silver basis for represented by the silver SOLDINO coin or by newly coined silver LIRE or TRONI coins equal to 1 lira di piccoli. Before 1472 the lira di piccoli had depreciated in terms of the lira di grossi either because of the falling ratio of silver to gold or because of the progressive diminution of the silver content of the SOLDINO coin. In 1282 the DUCAT was valued at 2 lire 14 soldi of the lire di piccoli, in 1376 at 3 lire 14 soldi of the lire di piccoli. In 1472 the lira di piccoli had been so much further debased that 1 DUCAT was valued at 124 soldi of the lira di piccoli."

"This last relationship, 1 ducat = 124 soldi di piccoli, was made the basis for creating a ducat of account which became distinct from the DUCAT as a gold coin. From 1472 to 1509 the ducat as a money of account was equal to the DUCAT as a gold coin whether figured as equal to 2 soldi di grossi a oro or as equal to 124 soldi di piccoli; but, surprisingly enough, the two parted company, and the ducat was used after 1509 as a money of account dependent for its metallic value upon the silver coins which represented the lira and soldo di piccoli, even though this ducat of account was called the ducato a oro, ducato di valuta, ducato corrente. The ducat as a money of account equal to 24 grossi a oro was also not the equivalent of gold DUCAT coin, but of 124 soldi di piccoli. To specify the DUCAT coin it was necessary to say ducato d'oro in oro novo di zeccha, or at least ducato d'oro in oro. Before 1555 the accounts of the Arsenal were figured in lire di piccoli, thereafter in ducats and lire di piccoli on the basis: 1 ducat = 124 soldi. To give metallic representation to this common usage silver DUCAT coins were issued in 1562. Silver DUCATS, HALF-DUCATS, and QUARTER-DUCATS were minted bearing the figures 124, 62, and 31 to indicate their value in soldi di piccoli. The legal price of the gold DUCAT coins rose as the silver coinage was debased: in 1545, 1 gold DUCAT equalled 7 lire 17 soldi of the lire di piccoli; in 1570, 1 gold DUCAT equalled 8 lire 12 soldi of the lire di piccoli ."

Edited by seppo

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417sonia
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Dear seppo, hello

I regret not having the mastery of the English language, which treats the topic is already complicated to explain in Italian, translated into English with google is a disaster. :(

You're on your way! I hope that you will have more news by reading the "Papadopoli" has suggested that Palaeologus.

I'll give you another hint: Frederic C. Lane - "History of Venice."

Grosso and Ducato

.... The government debt and international transactions were recorded in a "currency" based on Grosso. A "Lira di Grossi" corresponded to 240 of these large silver coins ..... For retail operations, within the city, were coined "Piccoli", which contained little silver.

A second currency was the "Lira di Piccoli" amounts to 240 fewer of these coins, and the "small money" that was equal to 12.

Since the subsequent emission of a small percentage of silver contained less and less, the Fat, which originally was worth 26 small, came to be worth 32.

.............................

caro seppo, ciao

mi spiace non avere la padronanza della lingua inglese, l'argomento che tratti è già complicato spiegarlo in italiano; in inglese tradotto con google è un disastro.

Sei sulla strada giusta! Spero che avrai ulteriori notizie dalla lettura del "Papadopoli" che Paleologo ti ha suggerito.

Un'altro suggerimento te lo do io: Frederic C. Lane - "Storia di Venezia".

Grosso e Ducato

....I debiti governativi e le transazioni internazionali erano registrati in una "moneta di conto" basata sul Grosso. Una "Lira di grossi" corrispondeva a 240 di queste grandi monete d'argento.....Per le operazioni al dettaglio, all'interno della città, venivano coniati i "piccoli", che contenevano poco argento.

Una seconda moneta di conto era la "Lira di piccoli", pari a 240 di queste monete minori, e il "soldo di piccoli" che era pari a 12.

Dato che le successive emissioni di piccoli contenevano una percentuale di argento sempre minore, il Grosso, che all'origine valeva 26 piccoli, arrivò a valerne 32.

:)

Saluti

Luciano

Edited by 417sonia

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seppo

Thanks! Vol. 3 seems to cover the last two centuries of the Republic, but there's no text - only illustrations. Is this a complete scan of the book?

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417sonia
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the book of Papadopoli consists of 4 volumes, 3 volumes of text and 1 volume of plates (drawings)

http://incuso.altervista.org/docs/Le_monete_di_Venezia-1.pdf

http://incuso.altervista.org/docs/Le_monete_di_Venezia-2.pdf

http://incuso.altervista.org/docs/Le_monete_di_Venezia-3-tavole.pdf

volume 3 text is missing! was never made a single scanning of the entire work!

Too heavy!

Saluti

luciano

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seppo

I found a treasure trove:

Unfortunately it seems that I'm not allowed to post the direct link because of lamoneta's anti-spam safety settings, but search the net for "Digital Library Numis".

There are heaps of PDF books there, including Papadopoli's "Sul valore della moneta veneziana", which sounds very promising.

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seppo

Sure enough, Papadopoli's "Sul valore della moneta veneziana" gives valuable information (p. 24):

"Oltre a ciò, nel secolo XVIII due erano i modi di valutare le monete in banco; l'uno si diceva a moneta corta, e si intendeva moneta alla parte, secondo i decreti del Senato, e ciò in riguardo alle riscossioni ed ai pagamenti colle pubbliche camere, ed era questa la tariffa antica del 1687, dove il ducato si valutava 6 lire 4 soldi, lo zecchino lire 17, lo scudo veneto lire 9:12, il ducatone lire 8:18 e l'osella lire 3. L'altra invece si chiamava moneta lunga, ed era quella adottata mercantilmente secondo i valori della piazza, regolati dal proclama 27 maggio 1739, e cioè: lo zecchino lire 22, il ducato lire 8, lo scudo veneto lire 12:8, il ducatone lire 11 e l'osella lire 3:18.

"Cosi il ducato di banco, che era originariamente lire 6 e 4 soldi a moneta lunga, diventava lire 8, e coll' aumento del quinto per l'aggio normale lire 9:12. La lira di banco originariamente lire 62 a moneta lunga diventava lire 80, e per l'aumento del quinto lire 96; il soldo della lira di banco valeva lire 4:16, il grosso della lira di banco era eguale a soldi 8."

I get the general idea, but can someone translate this properly? Google Translate is no good in this case.

Edited by seppo

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Paleologo

"Oltre a ciò, nel secolo XVIII due erano i modi di valutare le monete in banco; l'uno si diceva a moneta corta, e si intendeva moneta alla parte, secondo i decreti del Senato, e ciò in riguardo alle riscossioni ed ai pagamenti colle pubbliche camere, ed era questa la tariffa antica del 1687, dove il ducato si valutava 6 lire 4 soldi, lo zecchino lire 17, lo scudo veneto lire 9:12, il ducatone lire 8:18 e l'osella lire 3. L'altra invece si chiamava moneta lunga, ed era quella adottata mercantilmente secondo i valori della piazza, regolati dal proclama 27 maggio 1739, e cioè: lo zecchino lire 22, il ducato lire 8, lo scudo veneto lire 12:8, il ducatone lire 11 e l'osella lire 3:18.

"Cosi il ducato di banco, che era originariamente lire 6 e 4 soldi a moneta lunga, diventava lire 8, e coll' aumento del quinto per l'aggio normale lire 9:12. La lira di banco originariamente lire 62 a moneta lunga diventava lire 80, e per l'aumento del quinto lire 96; il soldo della lira di banco valeva lire 4:16, il grosso della lira di banco era eguale a soldi 8."

Besides this, in the 18th c. two ways existed to value coins on the market; one was called a moneta corta (short money), and was meant moneta alla parte, according to the Senate's decrees, with respect to payments to and from public offices; this was based on the old 1687 tariff, where the ducato was valued at 6 lire 4 soldi, the zecchino at 17 lire, the scudo veneto at lire 9:12, the ducatone at lire 8:18 and the osella at lire 3. The other was called moneta lunga, and was used for business according to its market value, set by the proclamation of 27th May 1739, i.e.: zecchino at lire 22, ducato at lire 8, scudo veneto at lire 12:8, ducatone at lire 11 and osella at lire 3:18.

"So the ducato di banco, originally worth lire 6 soldi 4 was raised to lire 8 in long money, and to lire 9:12 when taking into account the usual 1/5th mint premium. The lira di banco originally worth 62 lire became 80 lire in long money, and 96 lire because of 1/5th increase; the soldo della lira di banco was worth lire 4:16, the grosso della lira di banco was equal to 8 soldi."

Reminds of the situation in the eastern block before the fall of the Berlin wall ;)

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seppo

Thanks! I found a long quote in French from Papadopoli's vol. 3 (books.google.com: Jean Georgelin, Venise au siècle des lumières, p. 530), and adapted it like this (please point out any mistakes I might have made). Does this make sense?

"In the 18th century, the money of account was the ducato d'argento corrente. In a vote on 15 May 1687, the Senate had artificially set its value, and that of the new, lighter silver ducat (ducato nuovo, ducatello) to the traditional 6 lire 4 soldi, although the value of the coin on the street was already higher. As the market value of money fluctuated, the ducato corrente no longer matched the silver ducatello in value: it had become just a money of account. According to this exchange rate, called "short money" (moneta corta) and used in all accounting of the State, the sequin was worth 17 lire, the scudo 9 lire 12 s, the older silver ducat (ducatone) 8 lire 10 s and the new silver ducat (ducatello) 6 lire 4 s. In transactions between individuals, this exchange rate was only used if specifically agreed upon; in everyday business the market value (valore mercantile) was observed. Even that was fixed by the Senate on 30 May 1739 after certain fluctuations. According to this exchange rate, called moneta lunga ("long money") or valuta di piazza, the sequin was worth 22 lire, the scudo 12 lire 8 s, the ducatone 11 lire and the ducatello 8 lire."

I also found something on the subject at books.google.com in Giuseppe Boerio's Dizionario del dialetto veneziano (1829) p. 359:

"Monèa curta e Monea longa, vale Valore monetario, il quale cresce o diminuisce secondo il paese ove la moneta si spende. Per esempio sotto il Governo Veneto il Tallero Veneziano, che qui valeva dieci lire, ne' luoghi oltremare ne valeva undici; quindi, computato il tallero al valore di Venezia, dicevasi Moneta corta, e al valor d'oltremare Moneta lunga."

That sounds simplistic - as if the difference of moneta corta and moneta lunga was only that in the Venetian Levant a tallero (or other Venetian coin) could buy more than in Venice. Any comments?

Edited by seppo

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417sonia
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Ciao seppo

Bravo! :)

It was normal practice for the international currency of high value (such as coins of Venice or Genoa) had a higher value to '"foreign" than the current one in his own state.

Given that these coins were made of gold or silver (almost pure), you ran the risk that were merged to obtain the good metal. This was a normal practice of some States to stock up on precious metal that was turned in their money (often with less gold or silver) by obtaining large revenues.

In fact, the gold or silver values were variable and different from country to country, giving a value to money than that of the metal with which it was made good, there was less risk that would be merged to pick up the metal.

********

Era usuale che le monete internazionali di alto valore (come le monete di Venezia o Genova) avessero un valore superiore all'"estero" rispetto a quello corrente nel proprio stato.

Considerato che queste monete erano in oro o argento (quasi puro), non si correva il rischio che venissero fuse per ricavare il buon metallo. Questa era una normale pratica di alcuni Stati per rifornirsi di metallo prezioso che veniva trasformato nella loro moneta (spesso con meno oro o argento) procurandosi grossi ricavi.

Infatti l'oro o l'argento avevano valori variabili e diversi a seconda del paese; dando un valore alla moneta superiore a quello del metallo buono con la quale era fatta, c'era meno rischio che venisse fusa per prelevare il metallo.

Saluti

Luciano

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